Wow... I can't believe it took you this long to see it.

"We're becoming a nation intolerant of anyone not considered part of the status quo, whether it be immigrants, homosexuals or non-Christians. It's really quite scary to me..."

What are you talking about?

And there you have why it's so scary to me. People can't even see what's in front of them.

"We're becoming a nation intolerant of anyone not considered part of the status quo, whether it be immigrants, homosexuals or non-Christians."

We're 'Becoming'? Uh, Jeff, sorry to tell you this, but the U.S. has been that way for, like, ever. I mean, our founding fathers were looking for a place to live in which they could live the way THEY wanted to, not a place where everyone else could come to and practice what ever THEY wanted. And we almost eradicated the people that lived here because they weren't white 'Christians'.

Good point. But the founding fathers also wrote down that religious freedom as a key element, not religious-as-long-as-it's-our-religion. We have a big statue symbolizing our willingness to accept people into our society. It feels like every day we get further from upholding those values.

Well, true, but (to me) only to a point. The founding fathers really were of the impression that religious freedom was meant for those who were practicing other forms of Christianity. Eventually, as time went on, they had to adapt to other very non Christian religions.

Heck, I doubt very seriously the founding fathers would have approved of my Christian beliefs that do not believe in Hellfire, the Trinity, or many other practices and beliefs that most of Christendom hold dear.

But the U.S. is definitely getting away from being accepting. Most true after 9/11. I feel for people who are of middle eastern decent every day because of the challenges they face from seemingly every other 'American' who mis trusts them.

I haven't yet seen V, don't know if I will, but I've heard only good things. But a point brought out earlier is that terrorist only means that to the opposing side. There are others in the world who truely believe that our government is rooted in terrorism, much as we do theirs.

"Terrorism is in the eye of the beholder". Regardless, innocent people die on each side, which is the real tragedy.

"And there you have why it's so scary to me. People can't even see what's in front of them."

What scares me is people seeing things in front of them that don't exist.

Like Weapons of Mass Destruction?

Scary day when me and Tekno are seeing eye to eye...

See? I can be reasonable some times. When I want to be...

P.S., we also agree on Sam Marks, so at least that's someting. :P

"We're becoming a nation intolerant of anyone not considered part of the status quo, whether it be immigrants, homosexuals or non-Christians."

I'm sorry, but this is complete crap.

Intolerance drives opposition to immigration for some of the more unpleasant people, as it always has and likely always will. But in large part, it's being driven by economic concerns, not intolerance -- this as immigration in many areas reaches unprecedented highs. And cheap labor hits low income/disadvantaged groups the hardest. To equate tolerance for immigrants with just throwing the doors open to massive third world immigration is a utopian (and irresponsible) fantasy.

As for gay issues, if you check opinion polling over the past few years (or watch TV), you'll see we're becoming markedly more tolerant, not less. There has been opposition to gay marriage initiatives in CA and MA for example, but this is not greater intolerance; it reflects some distasteful political opportunism, and discomfort with the pace of changing the status quo (I don't share that discomfort btw).

And as for becoming intolerant of "non-Christians" -- that's just so ridiculous as to be unfathomable unless it's PC code for concern about terrorism from fundamentalist Islamic individuals.

You can't honestly tell me you believe that the biggest concern over immigration is soley due to economic development, honestly?

Please. Just more fuel for those intolerant of immigrants to use. And, as for Gay issues, and I may add that I'm not advocating either side here, just stating facts, if homosexuality were more acceptable, then no state would be outlawing gay marriage.

Regardless of what you see in entertainment, there is only so comfortable people are willing to get with homosexuality. And while the country seems to be moving towards using less 'christian' terms for 'christian' holidays (such as saying happy holidays as opposed to merry x-mas), Don't tell me that intolerance isn't growing unless you're a practicing Wiccan, Islamist, Buddhist, or Taoist.

Heck, I'm a Christian and the government and most people would like to limit me from practicing the way I want, so to say they aren't doing it to non-christians is ludacris .

The economic issue over immigration may not be as apparent to professionals who hang out online talking about vacations and expensive consumer electronics purchases. But it's an issue for lower-income groups.

Then there are cultural issues. With an unprecedented influx of populations not inclined to assimilate, the cultural balance is tipped. Much of the skepticism is discomfort about upending the cultural status quo. Some of this is not a reflection of our best selves, but it's also understandable in purely human terms; fear of change as opposed to intolerance.

"I'm not advocating either (gay issues) side here"

Well, I am -- I'm for gay marriage. But I believe the legislation against it came mostly from reactions to *new* gay rights initiatives -- not from decreased tolerance.

Jeff's point about "non-Christians" indicated decreased tolerance for them *in particular*. We seem to be in agreement that this is not the case.

In general, I'm disappointed when I see otherwise bright people abandoning critical thinking in favor of glib, politically fashionable pronouncements.

It's not "fashionable" dude, it's reality. This country is so fucking polarized about everything now, and that sucks. If you want to believe that everything is peachy, go right on ahead, but I'm not one to bury my head in the sand.

Probably my last comment -- I'll restrict it to the fatuous (sorry) assertion about general growing intolerance towards gays. If you look back at the civil rights progress of the 60s & 70s, there wasn't so much focus on gay rights -- the society wasn't ready yet. Mainstreaming an issue like gay marriage was not politically feasible until recently.

Now that the issue is front & center, there's been push-back. This is not unexpected, and in fact, it's part of a process, just as there was civil rights push-back in the 60s. In that case, it was governors "standing in the schoolhouse door," church bombings, etc. etc. But the society as a whole was already moving in the right direction, and it was unstoppable.

Push-back only happens in response to progress. To conflate this push-back with growing *general* gay intolerance is simple-minded, and flies in the face of observable reality. Look at the long-term polling data. Look at popular culture.

But hey -- when you've got a hammer, everything looks like a nail. The neo/theo-con driven plummet into Vendetta-like fascism is a durable (and politically fashionable) meme.

But just remember -- there's more than one way to bury your head in the sand.

I just wanted to inform you, Will, that I live in one of the 10 poorest counties in the United States. The ecomomy here is worse than almost anywhere in the U.S., and very likely way worse than where you live.

And I can promise you that immigration has nothing to do with it. The people here who are against immigration are doing it for stupid, prejudicial reasons, NOT because they can't get a job.

Not only that, but I also used to live in an area in this state where there was a large influx of latinos coming to work at the normally high paying factories for way less than they'd normally pay Americans. Again, trust me when I say that the dislike of immigration there was not because they were causing some economical impact, but because they were a bunch of rednecks that didn't like people of color.

I've seen both sides of it, and I can tell you from experience that it has nothing to do with the economy, and everything to do with intolerance, so you're arguement is flawed beyond the point of reason.

It's hard to tackle complex issues in small comment chunks. I did expand my initial brief immigration points in a subsequent comment to include the culture aspect -- not interchangeable with basic prejudice -- but please note my acknowledgment that it wasn't all exactly "a reflection of our best selves." I am not denying that prejudice does play a role. But to say the problem has *nothing* to do with the economy is as oversimplified as saying it's *only* about the economy. Or perhaps after pointing out that my observations aren't the last word, you're suggesting that a couple of your observations *are*.

Besides, the point I took issue with was that "we're *becoming* a nation intolerant of..." etc. I submit that your "bunch of rednecks" (not that *you* might have any prejudice!) were not "becoming" intolerant, but that the influx of immigrants exposed pre-existing attitudes. As ugly as any expression of intolerance is, this distinction matters because it speaks to that simple-minded, me-too "Vendetta" meme: we're *becoming* intolerant, and it's scarier than Islamic extremists! "Extremists" -- apparently Jeff can't bring himself to use the "T"-word. Not enough nuance -- despite 3,000 incinerated civilians in NYC and hundreds more civilian dead in Bali, Madrid, London, and the Mideast. To say nothing of thwarted attacks. But hey -- "one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter"!

I also noticed you had nothing to say about my gay rights comments. I suppose that was "flawed beyond the point of reason" too...

Bla Bla Bla...

And I didn't comment on your gay rights comments just as I did not comment on my personl views of the subject, but whatever.

And had you actually read my comments earlier, you'd likely have seen that I pointed out to Jeff that we're not 'becoming', we already are, to which he said 'Good Point', but you skipped all of that, so Nya!

You mean the post where he goes on to conclude, "We have a big statue symbolizing our willingness to accept people into our society. It feels like every day we get further from upholding those values."

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you're down to "Nya."

I don't know what else to say, honestly. Jeff said that the country is becoming intolerant. I stated it has always been that way, to which he agreed. You eventually said "Besides, the point I took issue with was that "we're *becoming* a nation intolerant of..." etc. I submit that your "bunch of rednecks" (not that *you* might have any prejudice!) were not "becoming" intolerant, but that the influx of immigrants exposed pre-existing attitudes"

So, you mean to tell me you 'took issue' with something both Jeff and I have already said and agreed upon?

I'm gonna use Jeff's favorite phrase he uses with me: What are you even arguing at this point?

You claim that the immigration issues stem from economics, to which I said that wasn't true. I never said that it wasn't true for some people, but you made a broad statement saying that it was the cause, and I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

As for your comments on my 'Nya' and my Redneck comments, you obviously have no sense of humor. That was meant to be funny. I'm sorry that you didn't get it and that you had to attempt insult because you didn't get the joke.

"you obviously have no sense of humor."

The problem is I don't know you. Unfortunately, I am all too familiar with people who argue for tolerance while demonstrating serious intolerance themselves towards people with different points of view.

The only people I'm intolerant of is stupid people.

I tolerate people with different points of view. That doesn't mean I can't tell you you're wrong, or that I can't say I don't think your opinion is valid. If I weren't tolerant of a different opinion, I'd have started name calling, cursing, and harassing.

But, then, I didn't resort to thinly veiled insults, either. That seems more intolerant to me than 'Nya', or a humorous nudge at people in my own community.